"What's at Stake is Everything"-The Last Columbia Protester in ICE Detention final web transcript

Rhiannon Hamam: Hey everyone, it's Rhiannon. On this special episode of 5-4, I interview two lawyers who represent Leqaa Kordia, a Palestinian woman currently in ICE detention. Leqaa was one of many who showed up to protest genocide outside Columbia University in the spring of 2024. After that, she was surveilled by ICE and put in detention earlier this year. Despite a judge ordering twice that she be released, Leqaa remains in detention eight months later. Her attorneys talked to me about how the government has used procedural tricks to keep Leqaa detained, how Leqaa's targeting connects to the Trump regime's repression of dissent, and what's at stake for all of us in Leqaa's case. This is 5-4, a podcast about how much ICE sucks.

Rhiannon: We are very, very honored, so appreciative to have a little bit of time today with some of Leqaa Kordia's lawyers. We are honored to welcome Amal Thabateh and Sadaf Hasan to 5-4. Welcome, Amal and Sadaf.

Sadaf Hasan: Thanks so much for having us. It's truly an honor to talk about our favorite person today.

Rhiannon: Yes. Amal is a lawyer with the CLEAR Project. Sadaf is a lawyer with Muslim Advocates, and they represent Leqaa Kordia alongside the Texas Civil Rights Project and the Boston University School of Law Immigrants Rights Clinic, as well as the private law firm Waters Kraus Paul and Siegel. And so Amal and Sadaf are joining us today to talk about their client, Leqaa Kordia, the last of the Columbia protesters to still be held in ICE custody. You know, our listeners know a little bit about, for example, like, Mahmoud Khalil, because we've talked about Mahmoud on 5-4 before, you know, the Columbia University graduate student, a legal permanent resident who was detained by ICE for over a hundred days, missed the birth of his child. But Mahmoud Khalil has been released. And at the same time, Leqaa Kordia, who was arrested just days after Mahmoud, has not been released. She is still in ICE detention.

Rhiannon: So I want to talk to you guys about Leqaa. And so maybe we can start—I'm gonna start by reading the first paragraph from a piece about Leqaa that dropped a couple of weeks ago in the New Yorker just to set the stage for us. "On a Monday afternoon in late September, a group of students and professors from Columbia University stood outside the campus gates holding large printed photos of people whom the US government is seeking to deport. After two tumultuous years of protests, multiple waves of arrests, and ultimately a $221-million settlement with the Trump administration, the university has returned to something resembling normality. But such gatherings remain commonplace, often with members of the faculty holding photos of Mahmoud Khalil and Mohsen Mahdawi, whose highly-publicized cases made them symbols of the government's crackdown on student protesters. That day, someone held the photo of a woman largely unknown to the public, Leqaa Kordia, who was not a Columbia student, but a, quote, 'simple Palestinian girl,' as she describes herself, who's been in ICE detention in Texas for the past eight months."

Rhiannon: So I want to turn it over to you all. Can you just help us understand, tell us a little bit, who is Leqaa Kordia? Why is she in immigration detention?

Amar Thabateh: Yeah. And just before starting, just want to uplift, like, immense gratitude and appreciation for having us here today to talk about our client, Leqaa Kordia. We've had the pleasure and privilege of getting to know Leqaa over the course of our representation during the past eight months in which she's been confined by ICE. Leqaa is a young, 32-year-old Palestinian Muslim woman from Paterson, New Jersey. She grew up in the West Bank, but spent the better part of the last nine years living in New Jersey, and has really deep roots there. Leqaa is a daughter, she's a sister, she's a best friend, she's a co-worker and a really beloved member of her community. Leqaa is fiercely and unapologetically Palestinian. She has an immense amount of pride for her identity and culture and background. And this really comes out in any and every conversation that you'll have with Leqaa. She's also a devoted Muslim who's deeply connected to her faith. She's the granddaughter of Nakba survivors, and she's unfortunately lost nearly 200 members of her family in Gaza. Leqaa has a really warm soul, a strong demeanor, she's like a natural born leader. She has previously worked as a waitress at a restaurant and in a clothing shop prior to being confined by ICE. Leqaa wouldn't admit this, but she's a really wonderful writer and poet. She speaks and writes so eloquently. She's brought me to tears on several different occasions just with her words. And she's written actually several moving statements and letters while confined. Listeners can actually read some of them on the Instagram page that is run by her loved ones, @FreeLeqaaKordia.

Rhiannon: We'll link that in the show notes for everybody.

Amar Thabateh: Perfect, perfect. Leqaa is also really naturally artistic and creative. She studied fashion design in Ramallah. She enjoys tactile art such as painting and making pottery, really anything that requires using her hands. She loves making things with her hands. And actually, before her confinement, she was learning to play the oud in her spare time. She has really good taste in music, and she's actually introduced me to new artists I've never heard of. And lastly, I think I would just add, Leqaa, like most Palestinians, is really family oriented. She keeps close ties with her family, both here in New Jersey and elsewhere in the US, but also abroad in Palestine. She speaks often and fondly of her mother, her brother, her sister, her cousins and, you know, extended family members. So yeah, I think I would just end on that note and sort of uplift how family oriented she is.

Sadaf Hasan: Yeah. Thanks so much, Amal. Yeah, I just feel like Amal so beautifully described Laqaa beyond, you know, what we see, like, in the headlines. And I think it's really important for listeners to get, like, this clear and really rich glimpse into her humanity, which I really feel like the government has tried to deny it and tried to erase by designing this system of what we've been seeing with not only her, but with others, of forcibly disappearing folks into, you know, the black boxes of ICE detention. And so yeah, I feel like just humanizing Leqaa is really important. And I think that's why we're here today is to just make sure what the government has been trying to do to make her story disappear, that it doesn't. And by shipping Leqaa thousands of miles away from New Jersey to Texas—you know, as Amal said, she comes from a really vibrant, beautiful Palestinian community in Paterson. And she's been confined by ICE for the last eight months, isolated from her family, her legal team, her community. And so I just wanted to uplift that this is all by design of the government to, you know, try to erase these stories.

Amar Thabateh: Yeah.

Sadaf Hasan: And just on a personal level, like, she's literally the most hilarious, sarcastic, down-to-earth, deeply spiritual person I've met. Amal and I have learned so much from her. And yeah, so I'm really grateful that we're here today to tell her story.

Rhiannon: Yeah. So what is different about Leqaa's story, if anything? She's arrested by ICE just days after Mahmoud Khalil is arrested and detained. She has been in ICE detention for that long. You know, she's first in New Jersey where she lives, and then all of a sudden, within hours of her detention, she is shipped to an ICE detention facility in North Texas called Prairieland. And, you know, she's never been to Texas. In some of the stuff that I've read, like, officers themselves, like, ICE officers are confused themselves. Like, there's just cruelty and chaos at every point of this process. They're confused themselves about, like, what the case is about, who she is and where she's going. She's initially told that she's gonna be in upstate New York, something like this, by officers who thought that. Then all of a sudden, she's in Texas. And then, you know, there is just the fact of her ongoing detention when other sort of, it seems like similarly situated immigrant protesters have been released from that detention. So why is she in immigration detention? Like, what is the government saying?

Sadaf Hasan: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think Leqaa's story is interwoven with all the stories you just said of Mahmoud Khalil, Rümeysa Öztürk, Mohsen Mahdawi, and others swept up in the ICE abductions that started in March during Ramadan. I think what connects all their stories together is the Trump administration's McCarthyian-era weaponization of immigration laws to squash organizing and free speech in support of Palestinian liberation. I think just to uplift, you know, why is she confined by ICE? I think there's kind of two main reasons why, and I think one of them, which relates to remittances that she's sent to family abroad slightly and kind of uniquely situates her story a little bit differently. But I do think all their stories are just yeah, interconnected in terms of what the government agenda is at the moment. And I think those two things are one, she attended a protest outside the gates of Columbia University during the 2024 encampments. And so it was really like a year later when the current administration began its crackdown on the Palestine solidarity movement that Leqaa was put on ICE's radar. And like so many of us, you know, she went to the streets to call an end to the genocide in Gaza and to advocate for the freedom and liberation of all Palestinians.

Rhiannon: Yeah, she's actually not a Columbia University student, right? She was just attending a protest, like you said, actually outside the gates of the university.

Sadaf Hasan: With hundreds of other people. And I think the other piece that is, I think, unique to Leqaa's story is, you know, once Leqaa was put on ICE's radar because of that protest she had attended a year ago, the government essentially went on a fishing expedition to find any excuse to paint her as a so-called danger to the community. And they've really outrageously latched onto these Moneygram and Western Union remittances she sent quite literally just to provide humanitarian aid to family members abroad in Gaza and elsewhere in the Middle East who are trying to survive genocide, forcible displacement and ongoing occupation. And so whatever money, like, Leqaa could send, she did to her family members in Gaza. And, you know, what was the money? It was just to pay for medical expenses, rebuilding after Israeli military strikes in Gaza, to also just buy gifts for her nieces. All these, like, very normal things that immigrants do to send money abroad. And, you know, the government has basically tried, as it does in its normal playbook, to paint, you know, money that predominantly Muslim communities sent with suspicion and so-called danger.

Amar Thabateh: Yeah. And just to quickly add, you know, I really wouldn't distinguish Leqaa from the others who were swept up by ICE in March, right? We know in March, the Trump administration initiated a wave of repression. It started with Mahmoud Khalil's confinement and it ended with Leqaa, all with the intention of silencing the movement of Palestinian liberation, like Sadaf just mentioned. And Leqaa's abduction was part of this wave. So while she remains the only one still confined—and Sadaf and I will sort of talk about the reasons why and how legally the government has been, you know, using procedural loopholes and gamesmanship to keep her confined, while she is the only one who remains confined, I really wouldn't otherwise distinguish her from Mahmoud Khalil, Mohsen Mahdawi or Rümeysa Öztürk. You know, she's part of this wave of repression that the government initiated to scare people into silence, to distract us from our own government's complicity and involvement in the genocide in Gaza. And, you know, maybe not shockingly, actually, this wave produced the opposite result, right? Like, we're seeing how it galvanized millions to speak out for Palestine with greater conviction than ever before. But with—yeah, with Leqaa, unfortunately, it's just—it's like it's unequivocally clear that the government is doing everything in its power to keep her confined. They're exerting every effort and relying on gamesmanship so that she is the only one who remains still in confinement.

Rhiannon: Yeah. And I want to talk about, like, some of those legal maneuvers a little bit, just to sort of like, you know, pull back the curtain. Like, these are the tricks, honestly, and the chaos and the fear tactics. And this is like the machine of the repression at work, right? And so I want to get into some of that, but before I do, I just wanted to talk about, like, how all of this goes back to what you were talking about, Amal, which is like our own government's complicity in genocide. Leqaa herself is, like, personally touched by the genocide. She has lost almost 200 members of her family in the genocide.

Rhiannon: You talked about the money that she sends back to her family in Gaza, in the West Bank, you know, wherever they are, and how that money has gone to support her family in rebuilding. It's rebuilding from prior Israeli bombardment on Gaza. Her aunt lost her home. Her home was destroyed in an Israeli bombing of Gaza in 2021—this is before 2023. And in total, you know, I read it's something like—this isn't huge sums of money, you know? It's something like the equivalent of a few thousand US dollars in total that Leqaa has sent to her family abroad. So I just want to highlight exactly what y' all are saying about, like, how personal this is and how this attack is targeted at just human beings acting like human beings do.

Rhiannon: And so let's talk a little bit about these legal tricks and the maneuvers, the gamesmanship, as you said. So I know that Leqaa has sort of, let's say, like, two simultaneous or parallel cases. There's a case in immigration court—Leqaa has a claim for asylum in immigration court. But there's also this federal case, a case in federal court that my understanding—and you guys can explain this more—is about the constitutionality of her detention. Is it lawful that she was picked up, and that the government is trying to deport her in the first place? On that federal case in federal district court, a federal judge recommended that Leqaa be released from detention while her case moves forward, goes through—goes through the system. And the government came back with another argument, and obviously kept her in detention. Can you talk about these tricks?

Amar Thabateh: Yeah, absolutely. I think you correctly identified the two parallel tracks in the legal case in which we are seeking her immediate release from ICE custody. So after Leqaa was abducted, she was flown across multiple state lines to Texas, a forum that is conveniently favorable to the government in both federal and immigration court. And the government has been sending people like Leqaa to jurisdictions like Texas or Louisiana, because they think they have the best chances of winning there. It's the same reason why the Trump administration is trying to keep cases out of the federal courts and in the immigration system, where the immigration judges serve at the pleasure of the executive. So the two parallel tracks, there's the immigration case like you identified, which takes place before an immigration judge, in which she's actually been ordered releasable on bond not once, but twice. And we'll explain a little bit more why that didn't stick due to ICE's games in court. And then there's the case in the federal court system before a federal judge. And that's where we filed the habeas petition. And I think important to note that there's strong interplay between both her immigration and federal habeas cases.

Rhiannon: Federal habeas being like a case where you bring constitutional challenges to your detention, right?

Amar Thabateh: Exactly. Yeah, exactly right. So in April, shortly after her arrest and confinement, an immigration judge first held at a hearing that Leqaa could be released on bond, which her family paid within less than 24 hours. ICE prevented her release by invoking a rarely-used provision called the "automatic stay," basically like an automatic pause to her release, while they then would appeal the bond order to the Board of Immigration Appeals, the sort of, like, body that oversees appeals.

Amar Thabateh: We then filed a habeas petition in federal court challenging the constitutionality of her confinement and challenging the Trump administration's targeting of Leqaa on the basis that it plainly violates First Amendment protections that she has as a person in this country, citizen or not. It is clear that she was being punished and is being punished for her speech and advocacy for the Palestinian people, and that's why we brought that claim. And so in the federal case, after a hearing in June this year, a magistrate judge recommended to the federal court that she be immediately released, calling ICE's use of the automatic stay that I mentioned earlier "likely unconstitutional." And so shortly after this decision came out, the government again shifted goalposts and asked the Board of Immigration Appeals to change the automatic stay to something called a discretionary one. And the BIA agreed to this in less than a day without giving Leqaa the opportunity to respond. So the government was using these procedural loopholes to keep her confined, despite the orders and recommendations that she be released. So now the district judge handed the case back to the magistrate judge and federal court to issue an updated recommendation, factoring these changes and developments. And we're on pins and needles as we await that new recommendation.

Rhiannon: Mm-hmm. Is that expected, like, anytime soon, or it's just, like, up to them? Is there any timeline?

Amar Thabateh: There is no timeline. It is totally up to them. And, you know, at the same time, like, while the baton is with the magistrate judge to release a new report and recommendation, Leqaa again was ordered releasable on bond by the immigration judge for a second time this past August. The judge found that the government presented insufficient evidence to keep her confined. And again, ICE played the same game by blocking the decision using that automatic stay, and again, like, emergency discretionary stay to keep her confined. So she's still confined because of their procedural gamesmanship, which the habeas case could really put an end to.

Sadaf Hasan: I just want to chime in about the automatic stay. I mean, it's basically the government just simply checks a box on a form to halt the immigration judge's release order. They don't make any arguments, they don't explain anything, and they're basically, you know, usually like, there should be like an individual finding about someone's danger or flight risk. And so the government just has, like, broad overreach authority to just, you know, check a box on this form and block her release.

Sadaf Hasan: And they've done this, like Amal said, not once but twice. Every time the immigration judge has ordered Leqaa releasable on bond, they've invoked this automatic pause on the immigration judge's order to release her. And then they've also combined that with requesting, as Abal said, something called the discretionary stay, which is just to, you know, essentially put together, like with the automatic stay and the discretionary stay, it's serving as indefinite confinement that's arbitrary and retaliatory at worst. And it explains why she's still confined eight months later, despite an immigration judge finding her releasable on bond twice. And so the kind of procedural loopholes and games that ICE has undertaken, we've seen, like Amal said, it's slowing down the relief that we're seeking in federal court where we're trying to challenge the unconstitutionality of her confinement.

Rhiannon: Yeah. You know, 5-4 listeners, just a couple episodes ago we talked about the difference between immigration law procedures in immigration court, the rights that somebody has in immigration court, the differences there from, you know, the rights that a criminal defendant has in criminal court, the constitutional protections that you have. Which yes, of course, in criminal court in this country, it's not like it's just and fair and those constitutional rights are actually respected, but in immigration court, just honestly, the lawlessness, right? The way it's completely imbued the process step by step with government discretion. You don't get due process, you don't get a hearing when the government accuses you of something, you know, accuses you of being a flight risk. The government is checking a box, right? There's no hearing, there's no evidence presented that you're a flight risk, you know, all of this stuff. And then stacking their discretion on top of discretion, the automatic stay the discretionary stay, right? Like, they have all of these procedural tools essentially to do whatever they want, right?

Rhiannon: And then immigration judges to just greenlight everything, rubber stamp everything. And that's the process. I want to make one more—one more note before we go to the next question, which is we're talking about ICE, and that is the government institution that is doing this. I think that a lot of listeners, a lot of people, the public at large, when you hear ICE, you of course think about ICE officers, right? That these are officers, federal agents, you know, who are going out on the street, kidnapping people, putting them in ICE detention. And then, you know, those are—you know, it's ICE officers, too, who are, you know, jailers at these ICE detention facilities, this kind of thing. But when we're talking about in court, I just want to make the point that ICE has lawyers, too. We're talking about lawyers making these arguments. And these are ICE attorneys, so it's not just kind of like—I don't know, I just want to make that point to just sort of illuminate, like, who ICE is and how this system works is that it's not just sort of like police officers. It's not just law enforcement out on the street doing this violence. It is turned around in this institution and by the government and lawyers doing it, too, in court, lawyers who represent ICE.

Sadaf Hasan: I think you're making really, really great—I'm so glad you're uplifting this. Just, you know, immigration court has a reputation of being called a kangaroo court, right? Immigration court sometimes tends to be biased, unfair, predetermined to just deny cases even when folks have, like, really valid asylum claims, they've provided so much evidence to, like, prove up their claims, rather than, you know, providing what you just said, like an actual fair hearing for really high-stakes matters, right? These are folks who are, like, in terms of court, trying to make sure they don't get deported, or that they are able to get released from, you know, illegal ICE confinement. And so yeah, I just wanted to uplift what you just said just in terms of how it is very different how immigration court functions in stark contrast to federal habeas, where we can make arguments about—you know, constitutional arguments about First Amendment rights, and we are limited in immigration court to make those same arguments.

Sadaf Hasan: Just to go back in terms of who is ICE, I think yeah, what we see in the media is masked officers wearing plain clothing and—yeah, and are quite literally terrorizing our everyday community and neighbors. Not even in this moment, but honestly, historically, they have been doing this.

Rhiannon: Yeah, for decades.

Sadaf Hasan: For decades. But we're seeing just in the current, you know, authoritarian regime, a really heightened level of this, where even just ordinary US citizens who are protesting ICE in the current moment are facing threats of, you know, federal prosecution. And so yeah, I think it is important to take a step back to be like, who is ICE? Yes, they have enforcement power to arrest and detain communities, but like you said, there also are attorneys in court who represent ICE, and they're kind of doing that enforcement, deciding whether folks should be deported or not in court. I don't know, Amal, if there's anything else you want to add?

Amar Thabateh: No, no. I think that was perfectly said. And I would just uplift something that Rhiannon mentioned was that they are part of—they work for a system. And that's exactly what it is, it's a system. You know, it's not just a few lone bad officers or agents or, you know, like ...

Rhiannon: Or just Donald Trump.

Amar Thabateh: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Or just, you know, one president or one immigration judge. It's a system that's working exactly how it was designed and intended to work. And these agencies, these lawyers, these judges, they are simply—you know, they're carrying out the goals of the system. So I think it's helpful, that perspective.

Sadaf Hasan: To center Leqaa in all of this of, like, how her case has been unfolding. I mean, I think the huge, huge injustice is just the disproportionate burden that has been put on Leqaa to prove she's not a danger or a flight risk in comparison to honestly, the little to no work the government has been doing to keep her confined. Like we just said, checking a box to block immigration judge's order to have her released on bond. And they're quite literally just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks in immigration court. And they already have conceded actually in her second bond hearing that she does not pose a danger to the community. And after Leqaa was forced to provide declarations from every single family member that she provided money to to basically prove that she gave them money to help them survive all the different difficulties that we talked about earlier, they then abandoned that claim after, you know, wrongly insinuating that her attendance at the protests outside the gates of Columbia University and giving support to loved ones somehow implicated supposed danger. So now where we are, I mean, in terms of immigration court after they've abandoned their claim that she's not a danger is this very flimsy flight risk argument that was really a non issue before. And that's what they're hanging on right now to keep her confined.

Rhiannon: Yeah. So we've talked about the federal habeas and the immigration case, like, moving simultaneously. What's at stake in the immigration case? Like, if the government does what it wants to do, what happens to Leqaa?

Amar Thabateh: I think when I think about what's at stake for Leqaa—and for all of us, right?—I think my initial reaction, my initial gut is to ask what isn't at stake? For Leqaa, quite literally, everything is at stake for her, from her liberty, her right to live, her right to live freely, free from the shackles of our government, both physically and metaphorically, her ability to protest, her ability to be reunited with her family and her community members, her ability to be reunited with her mother, who she holds so close to her heart, particularly after they were already separated for so many years after her parents' divorce.

Amar Thabateh: You know, continued confinement imposes significant and irreparable harm to Leqaa. You know, not only just the continued loss of liberty and separation from her family and community, but thinking about how her confinement harms other people, like her family members, especially her mother and brother, who she's the caretaker for. So just thinking about, like, months and months and months of confinement, lost time, these are things the government will never be able to give back to Leqaa, right? She was working, like, in the middle of starting her own business, she was learning to play the oud. She was, you know, spending time with family, friends, community. These are things that nobody will ever be able to give back to Leqaa. So that's everything that's lost and continues to be at stake for Leqaa. For us, you know, similarly, for everybody else listening, like, why should anybody else care about Leqaa, right? Or her story or her case? I think first and most importantly, Leqaa's case is important to everyone because caring about Palestinians, caring about the plight of the Palestinian people is part of our shared humanity. That's first and foremost, and really the message I want to center and uplift here. You should care about Palestinians and about Palestine, and you should care about Leqaa because it is a basic part of our humanity.

Amar Thabateh: Secondly, I would say what the Trump administration has done and continues to do to Leqaa doesn't just affect her, right? It doesn't just affect one person. It implicates all of us, because we should all be alarmed by our government's willingness to punish and censor voices advocating for Palestine. Because while today it's Palestine, tomorrow it could be environmental justice, it could be labor rights, it could be voting rights. It could be any other movement for change. And while today it might be non-citizens, tomorrow it could be all of us. And those are reasons why everybody should care about what's happening to Leqaa.

Rhiannon: Yeah, there's no ceiling on this.

Amar Thabateh: Exactly.

Rhiannon: There's no ceiling on repression. There's no ceiling on violence that is doled out by the government, right?

Amar Thabateh: Right.

Rhiannon: The ceiling has to be imposed, it has to be forced, actually, by the people. Because without a ceiling—okay, Leqaa doesn't have due process. The government says she sent money to people we don't like, whatever it is, right? She poses a danger. And we're talking about this whole time that she doesn't—there is no, like, meaningful opportunity to fight that as they just make their procedural decisions over and over again. Okay, well, tomorrow, whatever organization you donated to, Amal, whatever organization you donated to, Peter, my co-host on the podcast, right? The government doesn't like it. Okay, but this is why due process is important. This is why we should care about what's happening, because there's no ceiling on it. It doesn't stop unless it's forced to stop.

Sadaf Hasan: I totally agree with Amal, like, in terms of this idea that our collective liberation depends on Palestinian liberation. Like, every struggle against oppression and injustice is intertwined. As Amal just said, it's not about Palestinian rights today. It could be environmental justice. It can be labor rights. And I think the crackdown on Palestinian speech is at the tip of the spear. It's a testing ground for silencing dissent. And we've seen right now those floodgates already open in terms of the administration punishing anything that—quite honestly, just viewpoints it doesn't like. You know, there is an executive order and all these presidential memos that have come out that have basically normalized, punishing, quote-unquote, "hostile viewpoints." And it's really just anything that challenges the government's policies and authorities.

Sadaf Hasan: And we've seen this quite literally in terms of labeling Antifa as a domestic national security threat, to what I talked about earlier of just federally prosecuting ordinary US citizens for attending a protest against ICE. And so what we're seeing in the current moment is executive overreach, power grabbing in the form of terrorizing our neighbors and community members through active violence perpetuated by the military and ICE raids in our streets. And so I think just to take a step back and zooming out, you know, it's not only about Leqaa. I think Leqaa's case exposes the brutality of the government's broader agenda of mass confinement and deportation. A system that generates revenue, right? It's a for-profit system of immigration confinement. And so I think connecting the dots to—you know, to Leqaa's story, it's not only about Palestine, it's also, you know, her Palestinian identity, the surveillance that happened as a result of that. And it has to do also with just zooming out the government's just really, really aggressive agenda of trying to mass deport and confine anyone.

Rhiannon: Yeah. You know, you just mentioned surveillance, and that reminds me of, like, this other huge arm, this other huge part of the machine of the repression campaign of authoritarianism, which is that it's not just ICE. It's not just ICE raiding apartment buildings, it's not just ICE, you know, knocking down the door of a family, a neighbor. It's not just ICE, you know, pulling somebody literally off the street, but also a massive surveillance infrastructure that allows them to, like, hone in on the targets that they're wanting to target. Can you talk about, like, the surveillance process that happened in Leqaa's case, and which is obviously, like, demonstrative of a much wider project?

Amar Thabateh: I appreciate that you bring up government surveillance, because I think that it's had a really significant role, and in Leqaa's case, but not just Leqaa's, right? And many of the other organizers and protesters who are similarly situated and targeted by the government. But generally, right? Like, thinking about how our government and our country for decades historically has surveilled our communities—Palestinians, Muslims, people of color. And, you know, for Leqaa, the same thing has happened here, and the consequences have included really invasive and abusive government surveillance, not just of Leqaa, but of her community. So of Leqaa, of her family, of her Palestinian community members in Paterson, New Jersey. They were all surveilled. Prior to her confinement, DHS agents, the Department of Homeland Security, visited her mother's home in Paterson. They took a photo of a sign that said "Palestine" on the family's front porch, and they actually used that as evidence in immigration court to the point of proving dangerousness. And in that visit, they interrogated other, you know, family and friends in Paterson. They questioned her mother.

Rhiannon: Her mom is a US citizen, by the way.

Amar Thabateh: Yes, exactly. Her mom is a US citizen. Exactly right. And, you know, it became clear that they were surveilling and sort of, you know, tracking payments and transfers, like monetary transfer she had made. So, you know, Leqaa's confinement is part of a broader government crackdown on Palestinian rights advocacy that follows extensive government surveillance of her and her community in New Jersey. And, you know, I think the government and administration is not targeting Leqaa just because they want to repress speech it doesn't like, but also because Leqaa is Palestinian. And I think government surveillance is sort of integral in that.

Sadaf Hasan: It's no coincidence that, you know, in terms of the wave of protesters and organizers that were abducted by the Trump administration have included Palestinians. So, like, Mahmoud Khalil and Mohsen Mahdawi, you know, I think—and including Leqaa, they're all being used as ways to chill speech and to show, like, this is what happens when you, you know, organize and speak up for your people.

Rhiannon: Yeah. And as Palestinians and other immigrant communities know, like, this massive post-9/11 surveillance apparatus that was erected in the United States, it's now been used for decades to target people from countries that the US doesn't like, or people who are saying things that the US government doesn't like. For decades, honestly, even before 9/11. But more acute and constantly intensifying since then.

Sadaf Hasan: Mm-hmm. What we're seeing in the current moment has just added, like, a new touch or, like, a new element of, like, crackdown on repressive speech, specifically on Palestine.

Rhiannon: Yeah, we know it well. So we mentioned that Leqaa is currently held in an ICE detention facility in North Texas. Do you know anything about, like, what it's like on the inside, what these conditions are inside that detention facility?

Sadaf Hasan: The kind of conditions that are, you know, at the detention center where Leqaa is, I think it's not unique to her. It's a system designed to essentially break the human spirit and to wear people down. So I think for the listeners, just you can imagine what it would feel like to be abducted by the government and to be forced into an overcrowded detention center thousands of miles away from your family, from your community, along with hundreds of other women, in Leqaa's case, who are all trying to make sense of their future, right? Anxieties are off the roof about not only being possibly deported to a country that you've actively fled, but now in this administration, the risk of being put on a plane to a third country where you've never even lived in, where you could face harm, including death.

Sadaf Hasan: So now add to that the conditions of confinement where it's freezing cold, it's hard to sleep, you have zero privacy, there's barely any nutritious and healthy meals, you're isolated from your family and friends, you don't really have access to the tablets, which is how, you know, you're able to speak to people on the outside, and you're just stuck in a place where you only get a small window during the day to take in a little bit of sunlight. And so I think what's been really humbling to see in terms of seeing how the conditions have been really difficult for her is just this seeing spiritual resistance as liberation. Leqaa is a really, really deeply spiritual person. Even, you know, when she turned herself into ICE after being surveilled for a week, she didn't take anything else with her that day but her Quran, which she still has to this day. And so I think in terms of obstacles she's had, like, in terms of her religious liberties and inside, it's because ICE knows that prayer is a really coarse source of strength and survival for folks. And so I think for Leqaa, it's been yeah, just really inspiring and humbling how that's been, like, the constant for her, right? Despite all the difficulties, every kind of prayer and moment of spiritual connection Leqaa is able to carve out for herself is an act of liberation.

Sadaf Hasan: And so I think that piece is really important just of how she's been trying to survive the really difficult conditions of confinement. And then also just watching her advocate not only for herself, but for other women in the inside, right? She's recognized and she's told us that because she speaks English, it gives her a special access and privilege that other women don't have. And she's used that to uplift the dignity that they, and honestly, all of us, have. And so I think Leqaa's experience reflects the cruelties that defined carceral systems generally and that warrant their abolition.

Rhiannon: I've never met Leqaa, obviously. And I am so proud of Leqaa, and she is so representative of a Palestinian spiritual and political resistance, I think, to oppression, which is that you oppress me, you confine me, you detain me, you do genocide on my people. I am insisting in front of all of that that I am a free person, and that I am a person with dignity and I am a person with autonomy, and I will exercise it in whatever conditions you put me in. And I don't want to cry.

Sadaf Hasan: Oh, you make me emotional, too. Honestly, yeah, it's waterworks when we—you know, every conversation with her, like, moves me.

Rhiannon: And so it makes me so proud. It makes me so proud and so honored, and I'm deeply, deeply honored to have both of you on 5-4 today to speak about Leqaa, to talk about the work that you're doing. It is so, so important. True freedom fighters in the legal sense. So thank you so much. But before we go, I want to turn to—you know, we talked about why people should care. Like, why should you care about Leqaa, this one person who is in ICE detention right now? And I think we—I think you, Amal and Sadaf, too, like, really illuminated how Leqaa and others are canaries in the coal mine, right? They tell us something about the society that we live in, the government regime that we live under, and what problems—what problems we face and should be organizing to resist and overcome. And so you should care about Leqaa as someone who is showing us all of these things, but you should also care about the canary itself, and just caring about our shared humanity. So for the people listening who care about Leqaa and care about these issues, is there anything that they can do? Do you have any calls to action to share with listeners to advocate on behalf of Leqaa?

Amar Thabateh: Yeah, I think, you know, we, the legal team, we're fighting hard for Leqaa's liberty in federal court. And, you know, her immigration attorney likewise, similarly, is fighting hard for her liberty. And we are seeing the role of the courts as particularly crucial in a climate like this to curb abuses of executive power. But we know and acknowledge and recognize that the law alone is not the only vehicle for seeking justice and accountability. And so if Leqaa were here right now with us and we were to ask her, you know, what should people do to support you? What should people do to uplift your story and uplift your case? She would have one very clear answer. She would say, "Take to the streets, protest for Gaza, demand an end to the genocide, advocate for freedom and liberation of all Palestinians." She would tell all of us to do what she has been wrongfully prevented from doing for the past eight months. She would ask us to raise our voices and to stand in solidarity through action.

Sadaf Hasan: Yeah, thank you so much, Amal, for uplifting that, because I think that that's just core to who Leqaa is. She's always, whenever we talk to her, wanting to use her story to center her people, what's going on in Gaza, the ongoing occupation. And so if the call of action was to come from Leqaa, it would be that. From the legal team end, I think like Amal said, you know, the law alone doesn't—won't save us. And so we have to use all the other different types of strategies together. And one thing that we've been doing very closely is combining the power of organizing and collective action with organizers who are embedded in the free Palestine movement, the abolish ICE movement. And so, you know, Leqaa has a relentless community of organizers and allies, not only in New Jersey, but all the way to Texas. And so for the past few months, we've been working really closely and trying to combine our legal strategy with organizing on the ground.

Sadaf Hasan: And so one concrete call of action that we work closely with the organizers is policy advocacy. Right now, we need to keep pressuring our friendly political electeds. So there's a Free Leqaa campaign petition letter that's circulating at the moment for elected officials to act in New Jersey and Texas, to publicly call for her release. We're trying to get at least 10,000 signatures. We're already at 3,000 after just releasing the petition. We've been seeing local phone banking campaigns happening, which has been really inspiring of folks just calling their representatives to demand her release. And so I think together, like, the petition alongside the phone banking and just calling the electeds, it shows strength in numbers regarding public pressure. And so we need all these things to happen at the same time. We need people to keep protesting. We need folks to keep putting pressure on electeds, and we need people to keep amplifying her story. And so I'd also just put in a plug. She has on Instagram the Free Leqaa Kordia page, which again, has some of the beautiful statements that Amal said in terms of her writing, and I think just in terms of amplifying her story, I think that's also another way for folks to plug in and to learn more about her.

Rhiannon: Yeah, and we will definitely link the Instagram page, the petition in the show notes. If everybody listening right now to this interview signs that petition, it will be far past 10,000 signatures. And so I am asking 5-4 listeners, if you are listening, you click the link in the show notes, you sign that petition. It takes 15 seconds, and we will be past that campaign goal of 10,000 signatures on that petition. So, Sadaf Hasan, Amar Thabateh, lawyers on the team for Leqaa Kordia, I cannot thank you enough for joining us today. I cannot thank you enough for the work you're doing. I'm so very grateful and honored. Thank you for joining us.

Amar Thabateh: Thank you so much for having us.

Sadaf Hasan: Thank you so much, yeah. If I could just end with some words from Leqaa which really capture her. It's something that she said to us, which is "We are Palestinian. We find joy in everything."

Rhiannon: Dude, I'm on my period. I'm sorry.

Amar Thabateh: [laughs] Girl, shut up. Even if you weren't on your period, you would be allowed to cry and it would be okay and totally valid.

Sadaf Hasan: You do not need a reason. She's such an inspiring person, honestly.

Amar Thabateh: Yeah, she's amazing. She gives me strength, and I'm not the one in confinement. Like, we're supposed to be a source of strength for her and it's often reversed.

Rhiannon: Yeah. Don't tell my homies I'm soft.

Sadaf Hasan: [laughs]

Amar Thabateh: [laughs]

Rhiannon: All right, folks. Thank you for listening. We are going to put some links in the show notes of this episode for you to check out, for you to sign that petition. You can follow the Free Leqaa Kordia campaign on Instagram @FreeLeqaaKordia. That's Free L-E-Q-A-A-K-O-R-D-I-A. And definitely hit the link for signing her petition down in the show notes. We are also going to share a story in the show notes as well, a story that NPR recently did in which you can hear Leqaa in her own words talking about what's happened.

Rhiannon: Next week, a very relevant case, DHS v. Thuraissigiam. It's a case about the habeas rights of immigrants who are subject to removal proceedings. It's an old case, but it has a lot of implications for today. Follow us on all social media @FiveFourPod. Subscribe on Patreon at Patreon.com/fivefourpod—all spelled out. Free Leqaa Kordia. We'll see you next week.

Michael: 5-4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Dustin DeSoto. Leon Neyfakh provides editorial support. Our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at CHIPS.NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations. If you're not a Patreon member, you're not hearing every episode. To get exclusive Patreon-only episodes, discounts on merch, access to our Slack community and more, join at Patreon.com/fivefourpod.

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